Water holds a special place for many of us: it’s beautiful, mysterious, and potentially dangerous, if not treated with respect. Karen Bagley of Significant Moments is no stranger to this mix when it comes to photographing underwater. 

She’s built her whole business on capturing the ethereal and majestic nature of underwater imagery through constant education and high safety standards.

In this episode, she’s sharing what it takes to dive into underwater photography, the education you need to have before jumping in, why safety is her top priority, and how to constantly learn and iterate in this unique environment. Her way of storytelling, both through photography and this episode, is so captivating.

What’s in this episode:

• [03:06] Karen’s life-long relationship with water
• [06:41] How Karen approaches planning underwater sessions with her clients
• [10:46] The importance of safety and planning when it comes to underwater photography
• [20:39] What appropriate training for underwater photography looks like and why you need to have training before starting photography like this
• [29:03] How Karen chooses wardrobe pieces that will work underwater
• [33:07] What an underwater photographer workshop looks like with Karen
• [42:52] Karen’s take on pricing and her unique journey around her own money mindset
• [1:01:18] Karen’s Lightning Round, including her favorite editing session snacks

If you want to try underwater photography, this episode with Karen Bagley will give you the roadmap to get started! Let’s dive in!

SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts | Spotify

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Meet Karen Bagley

Certified Under Water Portrait artist and Master Portrait Photographer, Karen Bagley, is the creative lifeblood behind the brand of Significant Moments Photography. Karen Bagley is known for combining her editorial eye to genres of portrait work not typically seen, creating an entirely new level of art work. Specializing in women’s portraits as well as her gift with underwater portraiture as a whole. She blends her high-fashion eye right along with the sentiment of the session she is documenting into portraits you will treasure forever. Manifesting her journey through her art, this international award-winning powerhouse lives for bringing a new and elevated level of portraiture to the world. Her adventurous, creative, and sentimental demeanor is what led to the very strong desire to document such important memories. Due to this passion, and her growing brand of art work, this has lead to her furthering her career in the industry by speaking to and teaching photographers world wide to do so as well.

Connect with Karen

Visit Karen’s website

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Did this episode with Karen Bagley give you the insight to get started in underwater photography? Check out this episode The Business of Babies – Running a Profitable Photography Business with Erin Elizabeth Hoskins

Transcript

[00:00:00] Lisa: Hey friend, welcome to the Art and Soul Show. I’m your [00:01:00] host Lisa DiGeso, a mom, a photographer, and entrepreneur. Tune in here for pep talks, conversations, and advice on photography, creativity, mindset, business, life, and that messy in between. This is the place where you can go when you need a boost of encouragement, a kick in the pants, and inspiration to pick up your camera.

[00:01:18] This is the Art and Soul Show. Hello, my beautiful friends. Welcome back to the show today. I’m super excited to dive into today’s conversation with Karen Bagley. Karen is a certified underwater portrait artist and master portrait photographer, and is the creative lifeblood behind the brand of Significant Moments Photography.

[00:01:39] Karen is known for combining her editorial eye to genres of portrait work not typically seen, creating an entirely new level of artwork. Specializing in women’s portraits as well as her gift with underwater portraiture as a whole, she blends her high fashion eye right along with the sentiment of the sessions she is documenting into her portraits clients will treasure forever.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] Manifesting her journey through her art, this international award winning powerhouse lives for bringing a new and elevated level of portraiture to the world. Her adventurous, creative, and sentimental demeanor is what led to the very strong desire to document such important memories. Due to this passion and her growing brand of artwork, this has led her to furthering her career in the industry by speaking to and teaching photographers worldwide to do so.

[00:02:25] Okay, this lady has been on my bucket list of guests for so long and I am so excited to dive into this conversation. So Karen, welcome! Hello, thank you so much for having me. I feel so special that this is a 

[00:02:38] Karen: bucket list item that really makes me feel good. 

[00:02:41] Lisa: I love that. No, definitely. I’ve been following, I don’t even know how long I’ve been following you.

[00:02:44] It feels like a long time, but I’ve been like, so excited. 

[00:02:50] Karen: so much. I’m so excited to kind of dive in, no pun intended, 

[00:02:54] Lisa: to my life, my world. I’m excited about it. I love it. Well, that’s funny because dive in is exactly what we’re going to do. So your [00:03:00] underwater portraits are truly unique. So I want to know what.

[00:03:03] Inspired you to specialize in this genre. 

[00:03:06] Karen: Okay, so to make this not last an 18 year podcast, let me summarize as much as I can while still spilling my soul. So I love, I have always loved water, always have. However, when I was nine years old, I started getting really, really bad at ear infections, and from the age of about 13 until I did my first underwater session when I was 20.

[00:03:29] Six, twenty six years old, I did not go in the water. So even when I took a shower, I would put earplugs in because I would get the worst ear infections of all time. And I, I felt like a part of me kind of was missing. I know that sounds so bizarre, but when I tell you I have a connection with the water, it’s just It’s an abnormal connection to the water.

[00:03:48] I’m just at home there. It’s so quiet. It’s so peaceful. So I, I went for so many years without being in the water. And then I had a friend who had booked me for her maternity portraits. And she was like, have you ever done anything underwater before? And I was like, no, [00:04:00] I didn’t even tell her about my ear situation.

[00:04:01] I didn’t want her to feel bad in case I did end up getting an ear infection of some sort. And, um, she was like, well, I, I’m, I would like to try. And I said, you know what? We’re going to do it. So I invested in this lovely little 60 camera case bag from Amazon. It was not safe. I do not recommend that. But for me, I was, I was laying it all on the line.

[00:04:19] Cause it was definitely something that I was interested in. And when I got into the pool, it was actually one of the most complicated sessions. And I remember thinking, you know what? I don’t even know how my ears are going to handle it. Like, I don’t even know if I’m going to get an ear infection. I don’t know what’s going to happen.

[00:04:33] I said, but the only way to know is to try it. It’s been so long since I had fully submerged my head underwater. So this is the first time that my ears, my head had been underwater in over a decade and I ended up being fine. Now the session was bananas. It was extremely complicated and my client did not want to.

[00:04:53] To go underwater. She just wanted her shoulders down. So like, you know, hands on the baby bum little flowy wardrobe. It was [00:05:00] simple on that side for me, however, trying to sink, trying to get my gear underwater safely. It was a disaster. I mean, I don’t want to paint it pretty. It was just an absolute disaster.

[00:05:10] I kept, kept floating to the top and I was like, what is going on? I was immediately hooked. Immediately, and I’ve been underwater ever since I definitely had to get some learning on on my end, which we’ll talk about in a little bit, but you know, I was just I was hooked by the challenge of it. And I don’t want to diminish, you know, the difficulty of photographing on land or in studio because there’s difficulties there too.

[00:05:33] But the difficulty of underwater I’ve always been somebody who goes after a challenge, I always have been hence. a business owner. I mean, I feel like all business owners kind of have that wanting to kind of break the rules a little bit in them. And then for me, though, being able to take that and really create and do something so, so different underneath the water was, I was hooked.

[00:05:53] I was hooked immediately. So I’ve been photographing underwater ever since. 

[00:05:56] Lisa: Yes. I love that. Now, as you mentioned, there are some really big challenges. [00:06:00] I, I ended up, cause I’ve been shooting since, oh gosh, my son was born, so he’s just about, he’s 15 now. So 15 years. And I, I guess when he was about seven, I got one, I think it was called a dick a pack or dick a pack.

[00:06:12] Yep. Yep. That’s it. I got one of those and I took him to the pool. And oh my goodness, trying to focus underwater and then you think like when you see all these beautiful images, you think, Oh yeah, of course it’s going to look beautiful like that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is murky. It is mucky. And you’re like, how am I even going to create art out of this?

[00:06:31] So I love that you just went with it. Now when you have a creative process, when you’re planning a shoot, especially underwater, how do you approach that with your clients? You know, it’s 

[00:06:41] Karen: not really all that different from any session that’s booked with me. I definitely take my client relationships to an entirely different level.

[00:06:48] And the reason that I do that is because from the very beginning, I wanted to provide something different for my clients. The only way that we can do that is if we really, really know our clients, what [00:07:00] wardrobes they like, what colors they like, what, what, what are their dislikes? Are they nervous about being in front of people?

[00:07:04] If so, I’m not going to take them to the middle of Atlanta and photograph them in front of a large crowd of people. So it’s no different really with underwater. The biggest difference is, though, is just the amount of time that I take on the initial phone call with them when it comes to underwater. It’s such a unique genre that it’s not.

[00:07:22] And when it comes to safety, which I know we’re definitely we have to talk about that when it comes to safety, there’s it’s almost kind of like a drill answer, you know, Q and A that I have to kind of ask my clients. But once it I’ve kind of gone through that and then they have actually booked their session with me.

[00:07:37] I send them a questionnaire and it gets kind of personal. You know, I even want to know like, You know, when their birthday is, do they believe in astrology? Like things like that. I want to know who they are at the core. Yeah. So that, that way I can kind of understand. I actually did not really grow up understanding too much about astrology or, or birthdays or anything like that.

[00:07:57] But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve realized that there’s a lot of. [00:08:00] that kind of comes with it. And it helps me be able to kind of, I know it sounds a bit crazy, but it helps me to actually know my clients a little bit better. So if I have a leber coming to me, that, that balance and kind of that, that pretty, you know, kind of cutesy side to them, I want to kind of feed into that.

[00:08:14] So I asked them very, very personal questions and they’re very, very sweet. You know, they can always tell me if they’re not comfortable answering that. Honestly, though, before it even gets to there, I probably already know these things about them from a phone consultation. But once I have their pre session consultation, that’s where we do a deep dive.

[00:08:29] So with every single session of mine, I will have an initial phone call. I don’t meet with anybody that is not booked and paid. Once they are booked and paid, because we, we really don’t have time to be meeting with people who are not going to invest in us. You know what I mean? So once they are a booked client of ours, we schedule a pre session consultation.

[00:08:46] And once that happens, they’re going to come to me. Now with underwater, they’re actually going to get in my pool and we’re going to do a practice and safety session then. So all of these meetings that I have just kind of helped me get to know them. You know, I want them [00:09:00] to not only feel comfortable with me, but especially underwater.

[00:09:04] There’s a lot of trust that goes on between us. So that trust needs to be there. But then once we have this pre session consultation after I’ve kind of chatted with them, we’ve got them in the pool, I’ve got their questionnaire, I’ve kind of planned their entire session out. So I’ll give you just a brief example.

[00:09:19] I have a wonderful woman coming to me. She booked for March or April of next year. She had a very traumatic experience with water. She was very, very terrified of water before. Had a pretty traumatic experience. This isn’t necessarily maternity related. Just a session for herself, but she told me her experience.

[00:09:37] This is not known to other people and After she tells me her story, I am now able to kind of sketch the wardrobes that I want for her because I just see it. I see my client’s story through artwork. And so I will sketch my client’s wardrobes out for them. And I do that by getting to know them and asking them all these personal questions.

[00:09:56] So that’s kind of how my creative process goes. Like I said, it’s not really all that [00:10:00] different from, you know, You know, an in studio maternity session, an on land maternity session, it’s just a little more in depth, because that trust and that level of wanting to document them as who they are right now, it’s got to be there.

[00:10:11] It’s got to be intact. I can’t have somebody come into my, Into my space, into my water, into my pool, if I feel like I don’t know them. It’s just, it’s just a recipe to not have that trust in something going wrong, and I’m a stickler for safety. So I get to know them very, very well. 

[00:10:26] Lisa: I love that. I love that you are so passionate about safety.

[00:10:29] I’m a newborn photographer myself, and Um, safety is the number one priority. My, my phrase is like the image is never more important than the child. Ever. And it’s like the image is never more important than the client. And so I love that you have them actually coming and getting in the water and doing a safety, a safety session with you first.

[00:10:46] So can you talk a little bit about the safety aspect and especially if someone is considering getting into a water. underwater photography, why it is so important that they’re training with someone who is a master at [00:11:00] underwater photography and the safety aspect of it. Absolutely. So 

[00:11:04] Karen: first I do want to tell you how tickled I was that this was actually a point of discussion.

[00:11:11] I think a lot of artists It’s not that they necessarily forget about that angle, but I think sometimes the excitement of getting into a genre, even if it’s like something like newborn portraiture, they’re so excited that they may overlook it. And I’m so glad that this was a point of discussion because, especially in the underwater field, it’s Not as stressed as 

[00:11:30] Lisa: much as it should be.

[00:11:31] Karen: It should. And it’s, it’s, People can 

[00:11:33] Lisa: drown, like, you know. They have drowned. If you’re using weights, yes. Yes, 

[00:11:37] Karen: they have drowned, and it’s terrifying. Um, so, when it comes to safety, and let me kind of back up to my own journey, because, you know, ten years ago, it’s not that underwater portraiture didn’t exist, it just didn’t exist on the level that it does today.

[00:11:51] Today. So it was very difficult because I tried to kind of, I really and truthfully when I would Google, you know, underwater pictures or underwater portraits, there wasn’t [00:12:00] even a whole lot of stuff that would pop up. And if there was, it was something that was taken, you know, five years ago, there wasn’t anyone actively teaching it.

[00:12:07] So I was like, okay. If there’s nobody actively teaching it, where, where do I even begin? How do I begin to understand how to care for somebody else’s life in the water? And then, you know, I’m a mom of two girls and I was like, okay, well, the first thing that my girls did was they, I taught them how to swim.

[00:12:23] That was the very first thing. So of course, you know, everybody has to answer that question. Do you know how to swim? And they laugh at me and I’m like, you’d be surprised. How many people asked to get in my pool and they have no clue how to swim. And that’s another reason why I implemented the practice sessions, because I found out it only takes me one or two times for something to happen before I nip that in the bud.

[00:12:43] And I had one client who told me she could swim. She came, this was years and years and years ago, could not swim. And I found out within the first like 10 minutes and I was so, I was so upset and it ended up being fine. I cut the session short, but [00:13:00] it’s just not safe. And I understand the excitement’s there, but it’s not worth it.

[00:13:03] Your safety so that’s why I ask and that’s another reason why I have those pre session consultations But let’s if we went past the swimming part. Okay, they know how to swim How can I make sure that I can handle if something goes wrong out in the water? So the very first thing was CPR certification The next thing that I looked up was free diving certification and I actually was a free diver long before I did anything with scuba, which I think a lot of people are surprised by that they automatically assumed I had been scuba diving since I was like 20.

[00:13:34] No, no, no. I free dove first and I still prefer to free dive over going scuba diving. Now scuba diving is amazing because you’re under there for experience. extended periods of time. You can go a lot deeper. But free diving with me, like I said, I just have this connection with the water. It’s just, it’s beautiful.

[00:13:49] So that’s what I did first. I learned so much safety just through free diving with myself and just with other people. So for example, with free diving, you never go alone. You always have kind [00:14:00] of a support. spot up at the top of the surface of the water with you or a buddy that will go down with you but always has an eye out on you.

[00:14:06] So I was like, okay, my implementation into my career is I’m always going to have an assistant with me. It’s, it’s similar to newborn photography. You know, you got to have some help. Yeah. It’s, it’s not necessarily the job itself is difficult. It’s just safety, purely safety. So having an assistant. Who also needs to be CPR certified, who also needs to be free diving certification, you know, have their certification as well.

[00:14:30] Scuba diving is great. Scuba actually, what I found was scuba almost kind of switches what I teach someone who is coming to work with me doing an underwater session. You have to worry about your, your pressure gauge or tank and all of those things. Whereas with just sinking underwater, you push your air out.

[00:14:50] It’s, it’s a long exercise. So it’s closer to free diving than it is scuba. So as a matter of fact, a lot of people who are like, Oh my gosh, I want to book the session. I’m a scuba diver. I’m like, okay, [00:15:00] that’s great. But just know, I’m probably going to rewire everything you’ve ever learned about underwater.

[00:15:05] So it’s, it’s a little bit of a, of a tricky, uh, mental situation. Yeah. But once you get past that, it’s, it’s all good. So I did everything that I could on my end. And then I, I spent as many hours as possible by myself. In the water. Now, this was before I built my pool, so I was limited to doing it only in, you know, the season, summer season.

[00:15:25] Every summer, I was in the water, underwater, doing laps, practicing, doing everything that I could, getting my gear in there, trying to just understand it. Now, the, the next thing that I did was I went to open water. It was a spring. I, I call a spring open water. It’s not technically like the ocean, but it’s pretty close.

[00:15:42] They have very strong currents. And uh, I, a friend of mine was like, Karen, just let me go with you. She loves the water too. And she was like, bring your camera. We won’t do like an actual session. And I was like, you know what? Okay. You know, the, how else am I going to figure it out? She was a close friend of mine.

[00:15:56] So we go and it was fabulous. It was absolutely fabulous. [00:16:00] I was not safe with my gear. My, that’s a whole other story. My gear, I tied a 10 pound weight to it with that little Dicapac clear plastic bag. And I was just in this, uh, you know, 50 foot spring in Florida. If I dropped my gear, I would have had to dove down to like 60 something feet, 58 foot somewhere in there to, to go down and get it.

[00:16:19] But I took that risk because The, the thing that they don’t tell you about with underwater portraiture is there is no like, dipping your toe in the water. It’s, it’s, it’s a little scary. You know, it’s, it’s a field that you don’t really know. Well man, I don’t have a pool. I started without owning my own pool.

[00:16:34] It was really tough. I had to rent pools. Then you have to worry about the insurance side of things. There’s a lot that goes into it, you know, but I think a lot of people let that what if kind of control them. And, you know. You know, I know we talk about it a little bit, a little later, but I just want people to remember that you’re the only one that’s going to be making your business decisions.

[00:16:54] Yeah. You know, if your heart is telling you, this is a field I want to pursue, don’t let the what ifs, [00:17:00] there’s really no way, like I said, to kind of just dip your toe in it. You can always do like a GoPro situation and get in the water. That’s not really giving you the full experience. So, being able to actually learn and, and, and get that safety training with a professional underwater photographer, even if it’s something like doing free diving courses, whatever it is.

[00:17:19] I cannot stress to you the importance of that. It’s, it’s not quite like picking up a camera, going outside, you know, setting a Coke can, you know, on the stairs and photographing. Okay, this is my lighting here, this is my lighting here. Those are things that are easily controllable. Underwater is an entirely different element that you really just don’t have a lot of control over.

[00:17:38] That’s part of the draw to it, right? That’s kind of the draw to it. But when And so when we’re talking about safety and encouraging other photographers out the safety, it suddenly becomes just kind of a almost a problem waiting to happen. And then, and that’s, you know, that’s not what we want to do. And so talking about safety, encouraging other photographers to be safe.

[00:17:55] It’s so important. You mentioned weight belts to you. So like, I get this question [00:18:00] all the time, especially on social media. Why don’t you use ballast? Why don’t you use a weight belt? There’s no need to be using a weight belt in a seven and a half foot pool. There’s just no need. The reason I say that, and I’m a pretty curvy girl.

[00:18:12] Cause I know there’s a lot of people out there who are like, Oh no, no, no. Hey, I’m curvy. I would never be able to sink. I’m a pretty curvy girl and I can tell you because I have practiced and I have trained, I can get myself to sink. I don’t need a weight belt. Now, if there was someone who was scuba certified and they were maybe, you know, a free diving certified and they decided to put a weight belt on in the pool, you know, no judgment.

[00:18:36] However, you do have to realize your audience. If you’re posting something on social media and it has the potential to reach millions, thousands of eyes, You have to be so careful with that. And that’s honestly the biggest reason that I won’t allow any behind the scenes of me with any sort of weight on if it’s going to be posted on social media, because I don’t want anybody just seeing that and be like, ah.

[00:18:55] That’s how I think. I put a weight belt on. But the reality is, is that you don’t have to [00:19:00] do that. I’ve actually done videos showing what happens when you put a weight belt on and it pulls you so quick down, right back down to the floor of the pool. There’s really no need to it. No need for it. If you practice your breathing techniques, it’s almost as simple as like flipping a light switch.

[00:19:14] You inhale, your lungs become flotation devices. Exhale. You’re going to sink down to the bottom. It’s simple. We over complicated a little bit. We think it’s more complicated, but it’s really very, very simple to add a weight belt. Imagine if your client got her foot stuck in the dress and could not get back to the service, but now you have a weight belt and can not swim and get to her as quickly as you would need to.

[00:19:38] You’re underwater. She’s given you the underwater signal for help. And now you can’t get to her. Just a mat. It’s, it takes a matter of seconds, one second really for something to go wrong. Yeah. So, and then of course, you know, people who are trained, you know, free diving scuba diving, they’re going to say, well, of course, just quick, release your belt and get to them.

[00:19:55] Yes. But again, we’re talking about, yes, we’re talking about a panic [00:20:00] situation. Of course, remaining calm is like the go to thing. Stay calm, stay calm, stay calm. But when you were in a situation like that, you Staying calm isn’t always where your mind goes. So you just, you, I cannot stress enough how important it is to get training and not to throw a weight belt on if you’re having a little bit of a hard time sinking to the bottom.

[00:20:21] Now that’s for photographers. For subjects, there’s absolutely no reason to have a weight belt on them at all. No. Now, I, I stand pretty hard on that line. And I know I have gotten a lot of pushback on it. I’ve gotten a lot. People will think like little kettlebells and they’ll have their client hook their foot up in the kettlebell.

[00:20:39] They’ll have like little ankle weights on because, you know, an expecting mom can’t necessarily wear a weight belt around her waist. I’ve seen, sheesh, 10, 000 variations of certain weights that people do. And every time I am a Abnormally loud and obnoxious person when it comes to that. I’m like, don’t do it.

[00:20:55] Don’t do it. Don’t do it. Don’t do it. If you are telling somebody that this is [00:21:00] Okay, you more than likely do not have the training backing that up to be able to handle it if if something went wrong And like I said, I stand pretty hard on that line I know a lot of people will probably have some judgments on that But I kind of don’t care because I would rather be very vocal about it and not be liked Then and have somebody safe then to be like, oh ankle weights, okay And then have somebody drown on knowing that I had promoted or said that this was you know A good way to do an underwater session 

[00:21:28] Lisa: That it’s so important and I, I love, I love that you’re so passionate about safety because we have to be like, we are the pros.

[00:21:36] Yeah. And you know, 

[00:21:38] Karen: it’s so bizarre to me and I’ve always been passionate about safety always, but I think when my husband started having seizures, that was when it’s been. Sheesh, four or five years ago now, when he had his first seizure, I think having something traumatic like that happened in just a blink of an eye.

[00:21:56] Now, this is someone who never had any, any health issues at all, [00:22:00] ever. So his first grand mal seizure he had, I thought he was dying of a heart attack. Yeah. Hit the ground. I had to be very, very aware of, and I had to have that mentality of stay calm. And I would love to sit here and tell you that I was just as calm as can be.

[00:22:13] I was. I was so panicked. I was so panicked that I couldn’t even remember our address to tell the EMTs where to come. I couldn’t even My brain didn’t work. This, the, it was unfortunate that my daughters were there. Of course they witnessed it and saw it and it was very scary for them. But the positive was as I’m such a stickler on safety that I told them we have gone over things a million times, not necessarily in, in regards to seizures or anything in particular, just know your surroundings, know your surroundings, know your surroundings.

[00:22:43] So I had to give the phone to my then 15 year old daughter. And, oh, she, she, she was actually younger than that. It’s been several years ago. She was 13, 14, somewhere in that area. I had to give my phone to her. to be able to tell, uh, the EMTs where the address was. [00:23:00] Now, I know that that sounds a bit bizarre, I, I should also mention too that I, we weren’t home, we had just traveled out of the state to get our family portraits done.

[00:23:07] Yeah, we were in Miami. So it’s not like I was just completely being stupid, but I truly should have known the address, I should have known it. And I didn’t, it just left my brain. So ever since that happened, and again, it’s not that I wasn’t a stickler for safety before then. I always have been, especially being a, I think something about having kids, you know, you just tend to think about things a little bit differently.

[00:23:29] You think about it all the time. Oh, seriously. And it’s almost like the older they get, the more scenarios you create. Yeah. And you’re like, no, let me, let me, you know, and my kids were trained how to swim. You know, before they were even two years old, they were in the water with us, myself, my husband, and his family.

[00:23:47] We all were in the water all the time. So, but I just thought, you know, if they, every year we’d kind of throw like a little summer get together and have their friends come over. A couple of their friends couldn’t swim, and they were, you know, four or five years old, and I was like, [00:24:00] It made me a nervous wreck.

[00:24:01] So like I said, I’ve always been a stickler for safety. Part of that probably has to do with the mom, but the other part of it is because I’ve actually experienced real life scary scenarios. Yeah. And the thought process is, well, you know, we don’t want to, like, wish that something bad happens, but we want to be prepared if it does.

[00:24:18] And the only way to be prepared, yeah, the only way to be prepared for something is to have the training to back it up. I know the water, and I know my pool like the back of my hand. That comfort level comes from everything. Hours of being in that water. Hours. Not everyone has the ability to have that comfort level, especially if they’re like renting their own pool for, you know, until they have the income to be able to put their own in.

[00:24:41] And that’s fine. But if you’re not, if you can’t understand the pool or know the pool, like the back of your hand, you need to know your skills, like the back of your hand, you need to have safety. So I teach my clients, you know, what is the safety signal? That’s like the very first thing. If you, if there’s any, at any point in time that we’re underwater that you feel uncomfortable, this is your signal.

[00:24:58] from me to you. So I know how [00:25:00] many seconds it takes me to get to a client from any point in my pool. And I, I’m stand on that and I practice myself. So even when they’re not here, I will go out there a couple times a week just to practice my laps to make sure that I am on top of my game. Yes. It’s important because you just, like I said, it takes a mere matter of a couple of seconds for something to go wrong.

[00:25:19] So I want to be confident in myself. When you’re confident in yourself with anything, whether it’s the craft that you’re providing or the safety that you’re providing. It tends to make everything kind of, it comforts your client. It makes everything run really, really smooth. I cannot imagine going into a genre.

[00:25:36] Like underwater photography. Oh, let’s just say this. I can’t imagine doing a wedding I cannot imagine doing a wedding like if someone was to call me today and say hey I’ll pay you 15 grand to come do No, i’m not confident. I don’t know that I can capture the first kiss. I don’t have enough space skill set there to be able to do it.

[00:25:54] So I really, it’s, I apply it to almost any genre of photography. Really, there needs to be some [00:26:00] level. There’s gotta be a base of safety and you gotta learn that safety from a skilled professional. So whether that’s an underwater professional, underwater portrait photographer, that’s a professional or getting, you know, like I said, your scuba certification or your free diving certification.

[00:26:14] Free diving is going to be a little bit better than scuba, just because you’re working a lot with breath work, but you’ve got to have something, you’ve got to have a base there before you start pulling people in the water, it’s just, it’s not worth losing somebody over. 

[00:26:25] Lisa: No, a hundred percent. And I love that you talked about having signals.

[00:26:29] I was, because my question really was, is how do you communicate with your client when you are underwater? Hand signals. Yep. 

[00:26:35] Karen: So, okay, resurface. I need help or in and honestly this signal is for anything that they’re uncomfortable with it’s not even like oh man I’m drowning. It’s my foot’s caught in the dress.

[00:26:47] It’s it’s I need to come back up for air or it’s I need a break I have a bench that was built in the deep end of my pool for my my clients to just go and just sit because You’re doing a lot of inhaling [00:27:00] and exhaling, you know, you have to be careful, you don’t want anybody to hyperventilate, you don’t want anybody to faint, you don’t want anybody’s blood pressure, so you gotta, you have to take breaks too, that’s the other thing, especially, especially when it comes to expecting moms.

[00:27:13] So not only do you need to know the genre, not only do you need to know, you know, your pool, you need to know your skill set, you need to know your safety, you also need to understand pregnancy. Do they deal with morning sickness? If they do Them going back, tilting their head back and coming back up could make them seasick, essentially seasick.

[00:27:31] Um, and it can make them nauseated. blood sugar. What are the signals of blood sugar? If they’re heavy breathing, take a break. Yep. They need to take a break. If you see any shaking in the hands, take a break. They need to get out. They need to eat some food, drink some water, take a break. I’ve only seen it a couple of times.

[00:27:49] People shake when they got like heat exhaustion and they always, always did not listen to my suggestion of how to prepare before their session. It’s only happened a few times, but in those [00:28:00] few times it’s because they didn’t take my words of encouragement. Eat a good breakfast, drink a lot of water, but if you’re seeing it in the pool, where everything’s fairly comfortable, that’s a big sign you need to stop.

[00:28:11] So pay attention. The good thing about underwater is, is that a lot of pressure gets taken off of expecting mom’s body. So like, a lot of things that you might notice on land, you won’t see in the water. So, if somebody’s dealing with sciatica, you’re not really gonna see a whole lot of that underwater.

[00:28:25] They’re very, they’re very mobile, very free moving. That’s actually one of the beautiful things about underwater, is that it just takes so much pressure off, that you feel weightless. But when they get out, if they start limping, or if they’re kind of holding on to their back, you just, you’ve got to know pregnancy just as much as you know the genre of underwater.

[00:28:42] So there’s a ton of learning that goes into it. It’s a, it’s a process. I can say, and I’m, I’m pretty knowledgeable, I’m, I’ve been doing this for a very long time, but even with me, I will never get to a point where I know every single thing. I just won’t. It’s, it’s one of those fields where you’re always learning, you’re always [00:29:00] experimenting, but you’re doing so in a safe way.

[00:29:01] And I love that. 

[00:29:03] Lisa: And also, you probably really have to take into consideration what you’re putting the client in, the weight of the material, and you don’t just, like, go grab these really heavy maternity dresses that they’re going to just, you know, pull your client to the bottom. Absolutely. 

[00:29:16] Karen: Right? 

[00:29:16] Lisa: Yeah. 

[00:29:17] Karen: Oh, absolutely.

[00:29:18] It’s one of those things where, this is kind of where my girly side comes out, so I would put them on myself. Uh, for the most part, in the, again, I’m pretty curvy, so not all of the dresses would fit me, but I would sink them in the water with me. Move them around, play with them, feel how it feels to come out of the water with them.

[00:29:34] And what I have found is that a lot of the fabrics that you think are going to be perfect for underwater end up becoming very, very dangerous. So like cottons, you’d think would be so light and so breezy. It becomes so heavy in the water. Tulle, probably one of the lightest fabrics out there. Yeah. It not only does it hold air, but once it does sink, it becomes heavier than a weighted belt.

[00:29:56] And oh yeah, it’s so scary. So I have [00:30:00] two tool dresses that I’ve used. I used them on myself first and I knew I was like, okay, it’s not that it’s impossible. It’s the fact that I would need probably two assistants, one on each side managing the dress, but it also needs to be for someone who comes in and does their pre session consultation.

[00:30:15] And I can see That they can manage the water. Well, they have to be experienced with, with, and comfortable with the water because if any normal person, the minute you get in water with full clothing on your brain’s automatically like, Whoa, Whoa, wait a minute. What’s going on here? Why do we have clothing on?

[00:30:31] We’re used to going in the pool or in the ocean with a swimsuit. That’s, you know, next to nothing. You get in the water with, you know, a full on gown. Your brain is like, hold on. Are we drowning? What is going on? So you’re, you’re automatically kind of on guard a little bit. So not only do you have to deal with the other, you know, things that come with underwater, like water kind of trickling in your nose, things like that.

[00:30:55] You opening your eyes, if you don’t want to open them, whatever it is, you also have to not worry about [00:31:00] the fact that you have this gown that’s added weight. And again, we don’t want it to be a lot of weight, but. It’s added weight. So you, you’re kind of going through these hurdles in your mind. It takes a very, very strong person to deal with the two tool dresses that I’m comfortable even being in the water.

[00:31:15] But outside of that tool, when you think of it, you’re like, Oh, that’s light. That’s breezy. That’s easy. No, that becomes such a scary dress underwater. It’s so terrifying. I have a model that’s been training with me for 10 years. As a matter of fact, before I even started my business, We would go to the pool and I’d be like, Hey, I just want you to sync with me.

[00:31:35] Been training her for a very, very long time. And I have her also try on dresses for me. Now she’s obviously not expecting she’s been with me since she, she was in high school. Um, but she’ll try it on and she’ll be like, yeah, I don’t know about this or, uh, no, I’m feeling it. So I try to put it on myself. I am the test subject.

[00:31:52] So like, you know, my husband and my daughter’s actually now. My oldest daughter, for sure, she’ll be turning 18 in a couple of months. She gets in the water with [00:32:00] me. Um, I’ve been training her since both of them really, since they were itty bitty. She’s getting at that age now where she can kind of be like, uh, yeah, this feels good.

[00:32:07] This doesn’t feel good. I test things on myself. First, on my model. First, on my daughter, my husband, whoever. First, it’s me and mine that I have personally trained. So I, I have faith and trust in their skills under the water. I am not throwing just anything on anyone. So I have to, I have to kind of know what I’m working with.

[00:32:26] Something that I tell people, which goes back to even the weight belts, I want to feel what my clients are feeling. Yeah, I want to feel the water going in my nose. I want to feel going in and out, holding my breath, you know, exhaling, coming back. I want to feel everything so that I understand what they’re going through.

[00:32:43] A lot of people are like, how come you’re not using scuba gear? If I’m just underneath the water comfortably, how could I possibly understand what they’re going through? I can’t. And to do that, I’ve got to be able to feel it, to be able to kind of level with them and say, okay, you know what? Let’s go get a snack break.

[00:32:58] I’m getting hungry. I’m [00:33:00] thirsty. You don’t realize it, but you can get so dehydrated in the pool, even though it might be a summer day and it feels cold swimming and exerting all that energy. You’ve got to stay hydrated. So I have to feel it. I’ve got to be able to feel it to, to be able to kind of sympathize and empathize with my client.

[00:33:14] Lisa: I love that. Well, I love how you’re so passionate about underwater photography and also how

[00:33:24] So I want to talk a little bit about lessons from workshops and the key takeaways you want them to have once they’ve taken a workshop with you. Absolutely. Oh, I love this so much. So 

[00:33:37] Karen: I think When it comes to a workshop with me, biggest thing, and this is just any workshop, not just in regards to underwater, I want people to realize that they, they kind of have to silence the noise.

[00:33:48] Silence the noise is like my biggest takeaway that I want people to have. Because, like myself, you know, when I started my business ten years ago, all I heard was when are you gonna get a real job? You can’t do it. You [00:34:00] can’t do it. You can’t do it. You really got to silence that and put that in check. I am even one of those people who’s like, I was never very realistic.

[00:34:07] I was like, you know what, I’m going to start this business and I’m just going to climb, climb, climb, climb, climb. And I’m going to go and go and go and go. That was true for me. And I believe it’s because that’s what I told myself. 

[00:34:16] Lisa: Yeah. 

[00:34:16] Karen: I always want anybody that comes to me with any workshop to understand that as long as you, as the artist, as the business owner, are willing to put the work in, as long as you are willing to put the effort, To have those late nights, to have those moments where you’re kind of like, did I make the right choice?

[00:34:32] Did I not? If you are willing to do that, there really isn’t anything that you can’t do. There’s just not. I know that the world wants us to believe that photography is a joke. Maybe it’s a family member. Maybe it’s our significant other who doesn’t even necessarily believe in us. But if we do, and we can silence that, we’re already, we’ve already crossed so many hurdles.

[00:34:51] That’s the very first thing. Now, the second thing, of course, is going to be any and all safety. We’ve gone over that in detail, but I will pound it again and again and again [00:35:00] into the minds of anyone that’s listening. Safety has to come. First, it has to come first. That’s a hard line that I stand on and I could say it over and over and over again.

[00:35:09] Learn safety. So I want people to learn that from me. That’s something that I always spend a lot of time with. Again, whether it’s, you know, in the water, on location, whatever it is. The third thing that I want people to learn is business. Having a business mindset. I think a lot of artists really, really struggle with the business mindset.

[00:35:27] They see something beautiful. Oh my gosh, I can, I can photograph this. I know how to make it fantastic. Okay, that’s great, but how are we gonna make money from it? Yeah, and I want them to know that they can make money from it. It’s not something that We don’t have to keep that saying the starving artist.

[00:35:42] We don’t have to keep that line alive and well. We can make a good, profitable business with this. We just have to work on our, on our business mindset. And then the final and probably last most important, I mean, I talk about so many things, but the most important top four, I would say is [00:36:00] competition is not a thing.

[00:36:01] Let me back up. Competition is everywhere in the photography industry. It should not be, but it is. Sometimes it’s on the photographer themselves for putting themselves in a position where they’re like, what is my neighbor doing? How long have they been? Okay. No, I need to be doing this, this, and this.

[00:36:16] Sometimes it happens for that reason. And then other times it’s because, Oh my gosh, this person who lives 30 miles down the road from me, they’re starting to do underwater photography too. Oh, oh guys. We have to understand and we have to listen that our eyes, our creative minds, are ours and ours alone.

[00:36:33] Nobody else has our thought process, our experience with our clients, our relationship with our clients. My clients are never going to book with somebody else. They’re just not going to. Your clients are never going to book with somebody else. They’re not going to. There should not be any competition. And I know that that is a mountain that I will probably forever be hiking.

[00:36:54] However, I just want to remind everybody that community does exist in the photography [00:37:00] industry. It’s hard to find sometimes. And it’s, it’s, it can feel very lonely. That’s probably one of the biggest things that I see when I teach and speak is I want a community and I feel like I’m just getting judged everywhere that I go.

[00:37:10] Lisa: So, well, I. It’s been an old boys club for a long time. Oh, a hundred 

[00:37:15] Karen: percent. Right? A hundred percent. I mean, I could go into literal situations that I have been in where it’s me up against somebody who’s been in the industry for, you know, maybe ten years longer than me, five years longer than me, that happens to be, you know, kind of in the boys club, falls under.

[00:37:30] You know, hits all of the checks on those boxes and, uh, I’ll go toe to toe with them. And, but I’m, I’m, I’m a different type of a beast and my energy isn’t everyone’s energy. My confidence in myself and what I bring to the table. isn’t everybody’s confidence level. And I want to remind them that we don’t have to be cutthroat in this industry.

[00:37:51] That doesn’t need to exist. I try to make that clear by helping them to explore who they are as an artist. Because, especially when it comes to, [00:38:00] you know, doing a workshop, most people while they have, you know, ideas of, okay, I want to work on lighting, I want to work on posing, I want to learn underwater photography, I really want them to figure out who they are in that genre.

[00:38:14] Because if you come and you take a workshop, okay, now you have these new lighting ideas, but how are you going to make it yours? Yeah. How are you going to take this underwater, you know, maternity? Course now and make it yours because I can sit here and show you what I do all day But it’s just not gonna feel right with you now.

[00:38:31] So anytime I have a workshop It’s very very rare for me to take any photo at all Unless if it’s just me showing an example of this is how I would move or direct my client five minutes. Boom. Boom. Boom done I won’t pick up my camera again because it’s not about me It’s about me giving the knowledge that I have and helping other artists be able to kind of mold and create who they are in this field.

[00:38:53] That’s what we need. That’s what we need. I mean, I can’t tell you how many people I have to turn away with [00:39:00] underwater portraiture because there just, there isn’t anybody out there doing it. And then if there is, they’re not doing it safely. And clients can tell. Clients who don’t even, yeah, who don’t even know anything about this field.

[00:39:11] They’re like, um, I asked them and they said that they will just use weights. And I didn’t feel comfortable with that. So I’m having to educate clients as well. That’s like, Nope, Nope. But then I can’t fit them in my schedule either. So I encourage people, there has been such an influx of people wanting to learn underwater photographer and I’m here for it.

[00:39:28] Especially if they’re willing to go the distance and learn the safety measures and, and put the time and the effort in. We need it. We need people who have an education. And again, not just in regards to underwater, but every field. I mean, just working with expecting moms or newborns. You need to have.

[00:39:45] knowledge. You’ve got to have knowledge and safety underneath your belt before you can just jump in. But then on top of that, who are you? Who are you? How are you going to document this newborn? How are you going to document the soon to be mom? How are you going to [00:40:00] document this underwater maternity session?

[00:40:02] Who are you? So I really, really push artists. I put them on the spot and I know, and I do tell them this ahead of time. I’m like, if you’re learning with me, I ask a lot of questions. And I’m asking you a lot of questions. And you’re like, wait, shouldn’t it be the other way around? And I’m like, I’m not asking you how to do things.

[00:40:17] I’m asking you, what would you do with this fabric? What would you do with this dress? What would you do if this client came in and said, So I’m really comfortable with X, Y, Z, but I’m not comfortable with this. How would you handle it? What would you do? Where does your mind take you? And a lot of times I get the, Oh, you’re putting me on the spot.

[00:40:34] I don’t know. I don’t know. And I said, don’t, it doesn’t deserve an immediate response. Just mull over it for a second and then tell me what you would do. Most artists are so used to seeing what everyone else is doing that they’ve kind of put themselves inside a box. They, they really cannot create what they want to create because they’re like, Oh, I have to do this.

[00:40:53] Oh, I saw this trend going on. They’ve got to be making money. So let me implement that into my, into my business model. [00:41:00] I keep telling people, if you keep chasing the trends, you keep chasing the money. Essentially you’re chasing money is what you’re doing. Trying to book people. It’s always going to be a chase.

[00:41:11] The second we stopped doing that and we focus on who we are here, which kind of goes back to your earlier question. How do I get to know my client? I have to get to know them to be able to create a vision for them, to be able to create the wardrobe, the scene that they need. They don’t, clients don’t know, they might have ideas, they might have inspiration, but they really don’t know what they want.

[00:41:29] They know they want documentation, but they’re coming to the professional to aid them, to give them help. They need help with posing. They need help with wardrobe. They just, they need help. Everybody who comes in and says, I know what I want. I know what I want. I know what I want. They either have family, that’s photographers, and they’ve been raised around photographers, Or they have been paying attention and listening to what everybody else says.

[00:41:50] You come in, you get the digital files done. Nope, nope, nope. That’s not how we do things here. So we have to educate people almost all the time too, just letting them know that no, no, this isn’t just a quick, you [00:42:00] know, I’m not here to just let, allow you to post that image to social media. I want you to actually have heirlooms that you’re passing down to your family.

[00:42:07] So, I mean, it’s, it’s so much deeper than that, but it’s the same thing with artists too. They have to be able to offer something different and unique that’s unique to them. And a lot of people think that that’s like a huge overhaul. It’s not take the basic things that we know, lighting, posing, wardrobe, location, take those basic things and see how we can twist it to make it.

[00:42:27] Fit us. And that’s when you start to have a brand. That’s when you start to have recognition into who you are. That’s when everything kind of starts to come to fruition and you’re no longer chasing, but you’re attracting the people that want what you provide, but you’ve got to have a good foundation and a good base to be able to do that.

[00:42:45] So those are, I know it was a little long, that last one, but those are probably my top four things that I really try to drill into people when they, they come and learn from me. 

[00:42:52] Lisa: I love it. Now I want to talk a little bit about pricing because I think that’s always a funny one, because I’m sure you get [00:43:00] those comments that, Oh, like, so Karen, that’s all well and good.

[00:43:03] And I know that I’m going to have to pay all this money for all this training, but my clients won’t pay more than 300 for a session. So, um, me, but 

[00:43:11] Karen: I’m 

[00:43:11] Lisa: like, 

[00:43:11] Karen: this is an exam. I know it makes me, it makes me sweat talking, you know, anything, three, 400, that makes me sweat. So the reality of pricing is, and this is another area where.

[00:43:20] I think a lot of people tend to, and when I say people, I should say a lot of educators, tend to disagree with me because what do we hear all the time? The cost of doing business. That’s kind of the first thing when it comes to pricing that you hear. And I understand it. I know why it’s there. And the reality is that’s not a bad thing to focus on.

[00:43:36] That’s not a bad thing to kind Start pricing off of, but that’s not where we want to stay. If we are only judging our craft and our art by the cost of doing business, we will always stay in the same circle that we have been in. Now to elaborate on that, let me explain. When I first started, I had no clue on pricing.

[00:43:56] So I watched, uh, I’m trying to remember which [00:44:00] creative live I, that’s how long ago it’s been creative. Like, um, I see Bryce or probably it was somebody, somebody, uh, maybe it was Brooke. I can’t remember either way. I watched this course and I was like, this is genius. However, I can’t. understand spending this much money on photography because I was not raised that way.

[00:44:21] It was extremely difficult for me to understand how money actually works in this world. And a lot of people kind of have a little bit of a issue with people who make a good living. And then they really have an issue with people who make a good living through artistic means. Whether, you know, that’s a nail technician, hairstylist, photographer, painter, drawer, whatever it is.

[00:44:43] Some people are very, uh, controversial about what artists should be able to make. I’m not. I’m not controversial about that at all. I believe that every artist has a right and has the ability to earn a very good, and what I mean by a very good living wage, meaning. Your bills are taken care [00:45:00] of. You have savings taken care of.

[00:45:01] You can go and buy the shoes that are 700 if you want to. You can go and take a trip. You can take care of your kids. That is what I mean by having a good, comfortable living. I think that’s the other thing too. So when I was coming into this, I remember my first sale. So just a little history on me. I worked at David’s bridal, which is hilarious.

[00:45:21] Cause I don’t like weddings. It’s not that I don’t like them. It’s just that, you know, it’s just that. It wasn’t for me. And I was a very young mom. I had my first daughter when I was 18 years old. I got married very young. I had just turned 19, bought our house very young. We weren’t even 20. So it was just fast forward.

[00:45:39] And I kind of, just because I had worked in a studio and I was fascinated with photography from the time that I was a kid, my first job was developing film. I kind of just thought that Owning a business, everybody would just know. I have a camera, so everybody’s just gonna book me. That’s, I was so very naive.

[00:45:55] It takes a lot of marketing and a lot of work. In that time period, I was a stay at home [00:46:00] mom, but I, I struggled because I worked so well with people, and I think there’s a lot of bias on that too. Like, you need to be a stay at home mom. You need to be happy with it. And it’s not that I was unhappy staying at home with my daughter.

[00:46:12] I loved it, but I, I missed working. I really missed working. So you know, I, I told my husband, I was like, I really want to do something. And at this point in time, my mind, I’m like, you know what, the photography thing, maybe everybody’s right. This is where I had not silenced people yet. And I said, your mom tells me that, you know, I can’t, it’s just a hobby.

[00:46:30] Okay. So what do I do? Let me go to a couple job interviews. So I went into Victoria’s Secret and then I went into David’s Bridal. I was hired at David’s Bridal on the spot and I worked there for almost five years because at your five year anniversary, they give you a Tiffany Co bracelet. Now that’s significant because Tiffany Co, I had loved Tiffany Co for as long as I can remember.

[00:46:50] So at David’s Bridal, I was like, I want to get here. I want to work five years so that I can get this to you. cheapest bracelet Tiffany has, it’s still like a 300 bracelet, which for me [00:47:00] was like, oh, stop traffic. But, but you know, five years of your life for a 300 bracelet, like what? I made 365 every two weeks.

[00:47:10] That’s it. Now, even for then, because I mean, you know, now that’s like, you step outside and 365 goes. But back then, you know, things weren’t as expensive as they are now. But even then, just with driving back and forth and, you know, the time that I was investing 365 every two weeks, I was working myself through.

[00:47:30] And I was okay with it because I didn’t know any better. I was raised in a family where it was like half of my aunts and uncles didn’t even finish high school. I mean, and they always had jobs. They just had jobs. They didn’t have a career. I was kind of a tumbleweed. I just wanted to move. I was like, let’s go here and let’s go here.

[00:47:47] And my husband’s like, Honey, that’s not really, you know, how a normal, functional family works. So let’s, let’s work on it, you know? And while a part of that still lives very much so inside of me, I was like, no, yeah, you’re right. Kids need, you know, a stable [00:48:00] home and, you know, things like this. So I’m going to work this job.

[00:48:03] I’m a very loyal person. And I didn’t realize how hard I was working until I looked back. I started looking back years after I had quit and I was like, geez, I had lost so much weight. I was sickly. I didn’t even take lunch breaks cause I just wanted to show them how hard of a worker I was. Well, that changed because about three years into working that job, I realized being under the fluorescent lights, I was like, this is just, I’m depressed.

[00:48:26] And I’m like, what is wrong with me that I got everything that I wanted? I told my husband I wanted to work. Now I have this job. I’ve been here. What is wrong with me? I was like, do I have depression? Like, am I clinically depressed? What is this? All it was is that I am a creative at heart and I wasn’t listening to that creative side.

[00:48:45] So about three years in, my husband’s father had a camera and I said, do you mind if I borrow it? I just want to just see, you know, like just take pictures of my kids. Just kind of, I just want to see. And I’m telling you the moment that I took that camera from him, it was like a light switch went off in me.

[00:48:59] I [00:49:00] can’t explain it other than it was almost, you would think I would have some sort of personality disorder because the moment I got it, I was like, My eyes lit up. I remember the whole world looking brighter. It was like someone had just lifted a veil. It was so bizarre, but it was, it was very evident because my husband noticed it too.

[00:49:17] So I, I started doing that, just kind of playing with the camera. And then eventually I, you know, about a year later, I started charging like 50, you know, to come and do a, Little session of maternity session in my basement. Of course, I tried to word it as pretty as I could back then. But I was still working at David’s Bridal.

[00:49:32] The straw that broke the camel’s back was, it was a couple of months before my five year anniversary before I got that Tiffany bracelet. And there were some girls that came in and the reality is is that I struggled at David’s Bridal because I’m not a good salesperson. And I know this is a little bit of a long story, but I promise it does have a point to do with pricing.

[00:49:51] But I, I struggled with sales, which is hilarious because now when I have a sales session with my client, I don’t look at it as sales. I’m helping them pick their memories. [00:50:00] That’s it. That’s all I’m doing. And to do that, if they need to do an album and wall art, that I’m here to help guide them in what’s going to work best for them.

[00:50:08] That’s it. And so it’s not sales to me, even though that’s technically what sales is. But at David’s Bruno, I sucked at it. Well, these girls come in one night and they’re so sweet, you know, they’re just, Oh my God, I can’t wait. I can’t wait to try out an A line and, you know. And I was already kind of annoyed.

[00:50:24] I was having a rough day, and these girls were coming in clearly to just try on dresses. Which every woman has that right to do, you know what I mean? I shouldn’t have been in a bad mood, but I was, because I knew she was going to work me to death and I wasn’t going to get a sale. So, you know, I’m pulling these dresses.

[00:50:38] They were only supposed to have three just because the weight of the dress is on the bar, and she had pulled six. So I’m hauling these dresses up to the, up to the stage, David’s Bridal, and I hear her and her friends talking in the background. I’m not trying to eavesdrop, but they were so kind of loud that I couldn’t help it.

[00:50:53] And the bride, soon to be bride, goes, Oh my god, Becky, you are not going to believe what I did for my soon to be husband. [00:51:00] I did boudoir photos. And so immediately my ears perk up. And I hear, you know, I hear boudoir photos and I’m like, Okay, she did a session. Interesting, interesting. In the meantime, her friends are like, Do you guys serve champagne?

[00:51:12] Cause we want champagne. And I’m like, guys, this is a 99 dress sale place. Like, no, we don’t have champagne here. This is not New York. So anyways, I’m just kind of getting a little more agitated, but trying to keep my professionalism about me. And she goes on and she’s like, it was a little expensive guys, this boudoir session.

[00:51:31] And I’m going to give him the album the night of our wedding, you know? And I’m like, okay, so what’s going on here? Well, the girl, she says, well, Becky, how much did it cost? Tell us, tell us. 1, 500. That number hits my head, and the world stopped. Yeah. I walk my little happy butt back behind the sofa, and I just peek over her shoulder to see what kind of boudoir photos we’re talking about.

[00:51:55] And not to discredit whomever this photographer was, but they were very standard boudoir photos. [00:52:00] It wasn’t anything that blew my mind. It wasn’t anything, they weren’t bad, but they were just, Typical. And so, all within a matter of like a minute, my entire life has gone before my eyes. And I’m like, I’m gonna be here until I’m 80.

[00:52:13] I’m gonna die in this fluorescent light with the smell of new wedding dresses and plastic. I’m gonna die here. And I was like, but in my head, you just heard the 1, 500. She is a young, soon to be bride. 1, 500. I turned in my two week notice that day. 

[00:52:30] Speaker 3: Wow. And I never looked 

[00:52:31] Karen: back. My first sale that I got was a 2, 400 sale.

[00:52:36] I cried. I cried cause I had never seen money like that ever in my life. And so when it comes to pricing, that actually was the cost of doing business. That 2, 400 price tag. While I hadn’t seen money like that at one point in time in my life, You got just about everything in the kitchen sink with that pricing.

[00:52:55] It’s not like that anymore, but it’s still, it was pretty close to the cost of doing business. So I [00:53:00] really wasn’t making a whole lot of profit off of that. It was maybe like a 50 percent margin line in there. It was very low, but that’s to be expected when you first start. The issue that people, and I keep saying people that artists have with pricing is that they, They judge what everyone else is charging.

[00:53:17] So while that’s an okay place, I mean, honestly, I really don’t want other artists even landing on other artists, uh, websites. I really, I, I discourage that. Keep those blinders on. Focus on yourself. Everybody’s at their own journey. You have no idea what that other photographer, sure, they might be 200 cheaper than you, but do they have the knowledge that you do?

[00:53:35] Yeah. You know, you just don’t know. So try to keep those blinders on. Focus on yourself. Really hone in. But when it comes, you know, back to the pricing situation, they’re always looking around, they’re always trying to see what other people offer, and that’s just such a dangerous, dangerous way to be.

[00:53:50] Because if you’re constantly trying to keep up with pricing, again, you’re always going to stay in this continuous circle of never really moving anywhere. Out of all of the times that I [00:54:00] have spoken, taught, mentored, whatever, a pretty popular question that stays pretty unanimous all across the board is, My clients fall for the middle package, and I can call it before they even say it.

[00:54:11] Okay, well your middle package is the comfort zone because the consumerism mindset is, Well, I’m not going to be a cheapskate, but I also don’t want to spend the most here. We have created this consumer mindset. It’s become a monster now because we have tried to compete with one another. So now people are like, okay, well there’s 18 photographers who all photograph the exact same thing.

[00:54:31] So what am I going to do? I’m going to find the cheapest one. How do we stop that? We work on ourselves, we work on our brand, and then we work on our pricing. Pricing should be a living, breathing document. It should be changing. If you have a product that a client isn’t buying, why is it still on your pricing list?

[00:54:49] That’s a good way to understand your demographic. A perfect example of that is I used to have wood prints. Wood prints. I’m right outside of Atlanta. Do you know how many people bought that? None. [00:55:00] Zero. I don’t live next to a lake. I don’t have, like, southern country homes here. They want sleek. So, like, my little acrylics back here Metal.

[00:55:07] Well, they’re not really little, but my acrylics back there, that’s what they want. They want clean lines, very modern. As a matter of fact, I have not sold a canvas or a metal print or a framed print in a metal print. Sheesh, six years? Yep. Six years? Now, here’s the beautiful thing, because I am a custom service photographer, if a client does want a picture framed canvas.

[00:55:32] Can they do that with me? Absolutely, but it will cost them more because that’s not what I specialize in. If it’s going to require me to go outside of my vendors that I know and I work with, it’s going to cost them more. But that, the beautiful thing is, is that they don’t even care that it costs more.

[00:55:46] They just want to know if it’s doable. If you’re going to be a custom full service photographer, yes, anything’s doable for you, but it’s going to cost. I think artists are just stuck in this mindset of, I have to provide this. [00:56:00] I have to give these digital files if they purchase the album. No, no, no, no, no.

[00:56:04] You don’t have to do that. When I go and get my hair done, do I expect the shampoo and conditioner to be given to me? No. When I go to Target and I buy a shirt, do I expect that the copy of that shirt is given to me for me to make shirts for my daughters? No. So why are we giving anything away to people?

[00:56:23] It shouldn’t be happening. Now everybody’s, well, I shouldn’t say it shouldn’t be happening. It shouldn’t be happening for the price point that it’s happening at. Does that make sense? Yeah. So you know what I’m saying? If you’re going to be charging 10, 000 for 10 digital files, A There’s a whole thing out there where they’re like, oh, don’t sell digitals, don’t sell digitals.

[00:56:41] It’s don’t sell digitals for X amount of dollars because you need to be making bare minimum. You know, let’s say you need to be making 1, 500 per client. Let’s just say that. Then your digital files need to be at least five to a thousand dollars more than what your bare minimum should be at least, you know what I mean?

[00:56:59] [00:57:00] And that’s just spit balling, but I think a lot of artists truly do feel like they are like, they have to owe something to all they booked with me. So the nice thing to do is to give them. If they purchase, you know, an album for 2, 500, I’ll give them all the digital files of what’s in the album. No!

[00:57:15] Because if you do that, what’s going to encourage them to buy anything else? If you give them everything right now Out of the gate. What’s going to it? That’s I realized that probably it was probably about that five or six year ago, Mark. I started selling large wall art collections where I pre designed again.

[00:57:33] I thought that all photographers were doing this because I don’t really look at anyone. I did not realize just how rare what I was doing was until you know, WPPI and other conferences were like, Um, we need you to talk about this a little bit more. So I pre designed these wall art collections, and they’re large, like 20×30, 30×40, and then there’s another 20×30 on the other side.

[00:57:51] And when my clients come in, they see it all together as one collection, and they’re like, this is the collection I want to do. I [00:58:00] have seven wall art collections. No, I’m sorry, eight different collections and in those collections, depending, so if they come in and they’re spending 20, 000 with me, they are also getting their wall art, an album, digital files, a few, they might be getting like five or six somewhere in there.

[00:58:14] It’s not a ton of product. However, They need to understand, people need to understand that what they are paying for is their blueprint as an artist. So there’s nothing wrong with selling digital files, but are you selling them for enough that people are, if they were to go and print from them, let’s say they were to print from them for the next, you know, 50 years and printing them out for their great great grandchildren, is the money that you made off of that.

[00:58:41] Going to cover all of the prints, if they had printed them with you, would there have been a difference in cost? It’s something that we all kind of need to think about and I just, I feel I feel that artists really, really, really forget that we are a luxury. Yeah. And I know people get caught up in it and they’re like, Well, everyone deserves [00:59:00] good portraits.

[00:59:01] Guys, the reality is, is you can take a good picture with your phone. You really can. You really can. I’m not saying that portraits aren’t deserved among people. And, and the reality too there is that if you really feel that way, Then volunteer with a company, you know, once or twice a year. Volunteer with like the magic hour where families in need have their documentation to volunteer your time, but separate what you’re volunteering versus what’s actual work.

[00:59:29] What’s work needs to stay in its lane. And you know, we all know the saying, you know, don’t work for a family, don’t work for friends. And I hate to agree with it, but it’s so true. They will use and abuse you. So try really hard to stay outside of that. Yeah. Go ahead and volunteer it. If you want to volunteer it, then that’s on you.

[00:59:47] You know what you’re expecting, but we’re here to make money. We’re not here to be, yeah, we’re not here to be a hobby. No, it’s not a charity. And I think people just lose sight of that. So I, I, I implore people to remember, [01:00:00] this is a luxury. If we were to walk into a designer store, do we expect them to give us a discount because purses are a necessity to hold our things?

[01:00:10] No, it’s a luxury. It’s a luxury. So as long as we can remember that and kind of keep that at the forefront of our minds. Pricing will make a lot more sense to us. And again, we always have to be evaluating. It’s a living breathing document. We have to evaluate. If it’s not working, move it along. If somebody buys your album for 2, 500 and you see eight people in a row buy that, the pricing’s probably too low.

[01:00:35] They’re very comfortable with that product. So how can we change it? Now, a lot of people get scared adjusting their pricing, but I want to remind you, pricing isn’t the only thing that you can adjust. You can adjust the amount of product in that pricing. So, for example, if you are one of those photographers, and I know there’s a lot out there, so I don’t want anybody to get in their emotions.

[01:00:52] If you are one of those artists that is giving, selling an album, including all of the digital files, Come back on the amount of digital files [01:01:00] that you’re offering if you’re scared to make a price increase on that. Yeah, let’s reel that back a little bit. Those clients are not owed those images. They bought them in the album.

[01:01:08] The album, that is it. So, but if you’re scared, Small adjustments. Let’s just, instead of offering all 20, let’s just give them 10. And then kind of adjust. Yeah. Adjust from there. It’s 

[01:01:18] Lisa: great advice. All right. You ready for our lightning round? I’m ready. I think I’m ready. What’s your go to snack during a long editing session?

[01:01:26] Protein shakes or protein bars. I love protein bars. 

[01:01:28] Speaker 3: I 

[01:01:29] Lisa: like it. If your photography style had a theme song, what would it be? Tattoo by Laureen. If you could instantly master any skill, what would it be? 

[01:01:40] Karen: Is breathing underwater a skill? I don’t 

[01:01:42] Lisa: think that’s a 

[01:01:42] Karen: skill. 

[01:01:44] Lisa: I would have gills. I would put gills 

[01:01:45] Karen: on myself.

[01:01:47] I love it. What is the most random request you’ve ever had from a client? I’m going back years and years and years ago but it still counts. I had a woman who wanted a car in her session and I didn’t [01:02:00] know very much about cars but I was expecting it to be like, you know, like an old muscle car. It was not.

[01:02:06] It was very, very beat up. It had to be towed. Oh Lord. To where, yes, oh Lord is right. It had to be towed to where her session was. It caused a big scene because we were actually photographing at a monastery and the tow truck was very loud and the car wouldn’t start at all. It was not even really that pretty of a car.

[01:02:29] It was not a muscle car. There was nothing to it. It was just sentimental to her for, uh, I think it was her soon to be husband’s death. It’s father’s car, but it wasn’t, it wasn’t anything special. I even asked my husband, I was like, am I just stupid or like, is this a car that I don’t know about? Like, what is this?

[01:02:46] And he was like, no, honey, it’s no, it’s just a, it’s just a regular rusty car. It’s okay. 

[01:02:50] Lisa: And I was like, ah, all right. That’s probably the most 

[01:02:53] Karen: random. 

[01:02:54] Lisa: That’s hilarious. You’re going to be teaching with the online newborn retreat that is happening in [01:03:00] January and we are so excited. So I’m sure a little bit what you’re going to be teaching on.

[01:03:05] Karen: Absolutely. So it’s going to be a stylized session from start to finish. It’s going to go into posing, lighting, basically kind of my creative lifeblood on how my sessions function, work, run from start to finish. So I am actually going to share behind the scenes. I’m actually going to design an entire session based on a model that I have that I’m going to be like, what?

[01:03:24] Tell me your likes, your dislikes. And I’m going to. Sketch everything out. You’re going to get to see behind the scenes. Then we’re going to go into the session. You’re going to see a little bit of my editing. I’m going to try to cram as much as I can in the time. But see it from start to finish so that you can kind of understand what exactly I mean when I say Get to know your clients build a brand that is you i’m going to show you how my personality Spills into my artwork so that I can create something different and create an experience that you can’t just get anywhere 

[01:03:51] Lisa: I love that so much.

[01:03:51] We’re so excited. We’re I too 

[01:03:54] Karen: i’m thrilled 

[01:03:55] Lisa: so 

[01:03:56] Karen: Where can our listeners learn more from you? Oh my goodness. [01:04:00] Okay. I’m everywhere. I’m on Instagram. I’m on a Tik TOK. I have YouTube learning from me. I mentor. I, I actually didn’t offer a lot of workshops over the last couple of years, just because I was speaking at so many conferences and I scaled back on the conferences a little bit.

[01:04:18] So like WPPI last year, was it last year? Yeah. Last year I had nine flights within a 10 week period. It was, I don’t want to say a nightmare, it wasn’t a nightmare, because I love speaking and teaching, but it was so hard on me that I had to, I had to scale back. So now I only accept like one or two conferences like once at the beginning of the year and one at the end of the year.

[01:04:42] So like my last one for this year is, November, but it’s boudoir related and they’re having me there for marketing. So, but outside of that mentoring is always something that I offer because I do feel having one on one help is so important, especially [01:05:00] if there’s someone who has been in the industry for a while, or even if maybe they’re fairly new, but there isn’t anything that they can gain from a group workshop, if that makes sense.

[01:05:09] And sometimes, most of the time, it really goes more into the business side of things. When it comes to underwater, I have my AquaPro certification. So it’s the first certification of its kind. It took me years and years and years to get this in order. And basically it is a three course certification process.

[01:05:28] You have to come and train with me the first time, but then you have to log hours afterwards before you can gain the first part. Then the second part, we actually spend a little bit more time in water, but then even after that, you have to log more hours. then you can gain your, your title as a master professional underwater photographer.

[01:05:45] I love that. So it took me a long time to put that in there, put that in order, but we released it last year and dates are already preset. They’re already up on my website. You just kind of go in and you do have to complete the very first one before you can move on to the next and the next. 

[01:05:59] Lisa: Yeah, [01:06:00] but I’m everywhere.

[01:06:01] Yep. I love it. So I’d love to end my interviews just with this last question, and it is, what are you currently curious about or artistically curious about? Oh, I 

[01:06:11] Karen: stay. I stay curious. Same. Part of my personality is, That, that kind of, um, excitement just about everything in life. If there’s anything that I don’t know, I, I want to figure it out.

[01:06:25] So I think any curiosity that I have right now would probably have to go back to underwater. It’s not that I don’t have curious, uh, moments with creating on land cause I absolutely do, but I definitely have curiosities with what I can do underwater. What I can create as far as like settings and scenes and backdrops and posing.

[01:06:47] How can I improve? How can I? Push this and go a little bit further. How can I become AI without using AI? That’s probably my biggest. curious moment is like, you know, I know that our minds are never going to [01:07:00] really beat AI in some areas, but at the same time, AI is never going to beat us when it comes to creativity and pure, true creativity.

[01:07:08] That’s, you know, coming, you know, not like a kid and a dragon, you know, sitting together, but like something that’s real that people can feel and experience. AI is never going to beat us in that. So I’m, I’m very curious about how I can work on my experience and myself as an artist to, to get to that level.

[01:07:24] Lisa: I love that. Well, Karen, thank you so much for joining me today. 

[01:07:27] Karen: Absolutely. I’m sorry if I talk so long. It was awesome. I would love to tell you that this is just a one off scenario, but it’s not. I talk this way all the time. I love it. The perfect guest to talk a lot. I love it. But thank you. No, it’s been such an honor.

[01:07:43] I’m so happy that you 

[01:07:44] Lisa: wanted to have me on here. So thank you. Oh, my beautiful friends. I hope you have loved this conversation just as much as I have. I’m sending you so much of my light and my love today and every single day. We will see you next [01:08:00] time.